![[info]](/img/userinfo.gif?v=92.2){kind=small}
![[info]](/img/community.gif?v=92.2){kind=small}
This community is about two things. Keyboards and X Window System. Anything related to these matters is a valid topic here.
In particular, XKB extension is of interest. Layouts, utilities etc etc. Problems, bugs, complaining - whatever. XOrg, XFree, commercial X servers - whatever.
Xmodmap (classic X Window keyboard machinery) is a valid subject as well.
Feel free to discuss input methods, composing, keyboard PnP etc etc
Configuring the keyboards is a tough business sometimes - so it is a first priority topic here.
Hopefully here will be people here to discuss and comment, to ask and to answer. Everyone is welcome.
November 7 2005, 19:58:55 UTC 6 years ago
Number of languages
The thing that seam absurd to me is some kind of strange 4 language limit that I see in Gnome for example. I still have not heard an explanation about why there is this arbitrary limit and why it is so low? I can think of many situations when more then 4 keyboard layouts will be critical to proper functionality of the computer, for a simple example - a translating office. Even one such example makes this arbitrary restriction unacceptable.Even worse, this restriction appeared a couple years ago - before that, there was no such restriction.
Could we please talk about it and finally fix this horrendos bug?!
November 7 2005, 22:10:25 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
Sure we can talk about it. If you look at the community info, there is document #2 regarding XKB problems - just have a look at it. The number 4 if fixed, on protocol level. It cannot be changed without breaking the protocol. Earlier keyboard solution (before gnome 2.6) was incorrect in many aspects - THAT is why it allowed > 4 layouts.November 7 2005, 22:27:20 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
Well, I really do not care if it was wrong or right, but I need my functionality regardless of how it is implemented.November 7 2005, 22:43:13 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
Several points:1. gkb was broken in many ways. Changing it to gswitchit fixed most of the problems. But it created one minor problem: limitation on the number of groups (raised from XKB level)
2. xkb extension cannot be fixed without breaking compatibility. It is a long and painful way. I have doubts it will ever happen - but you can raise your voice in xorg mailing lists
3. Well, IN THEORY current gnome solution (based on gswitchit) CAN be hacked in order to hide the limitation of 4 groups. But it will be error-prone, unreliable and generally hackish solution. I don't really feel high demand from users to start this painful process (which make break everything keyboard-related in gnome - potentially making happy very very few users). But again, you can convince me by raising this issue in the gnome development mailing lists.
That's my position on the issue. There is no easy way from the current situation, that's for sure.
November 7 2005, 22:53:18 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
What is the problem with switching keyboard layouts (and only use groups to create keyboard layouts)?Each language should have a fully independant keyboard layout - if I press RAlt+letter in the Russian layout, the result should not be dependant on which other layouts are in my list. The previouse implementation also insured this. If I had Russian layout among 15 other layouts in my list, I could use it in exactly the same way as the person that only has the one Russian layout in his list.
So far I can only see regressions of the "new" system:
* only 4 languages
* languages are not independant
* flags are lost
So, why exactly do you think these regressions are justifiable?
November 7 2005, 23:11:39 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
> Each language should have a fully independant keyboard layoutExactly - that's how it's done since XFree86 4.3.0. But when you combine them - you get ONE XKB CONFIGURATION. Which may contain up to 4 groups (and at this point there are no LAYOUTS in XKB - only groups).
> If I had Russian layout among 15 other layouts in my list, I could use it in exactly the same way as the person that only has the one Russian layout in his list.
Is it changed now??? Wherever you add Russian layout - you get Russian group at corresponding position. What's wrong with it?
> * only 4 languages
Explained above
> * languages are not independant
Could you please explain what you mean? I don't really understand this point.
> * flags are lost
This is political issue, absolutely irrelevant to this discussion. They are not "lost", they are "banned" at the GNOME policy level. See another discussion in this community.
I would really recommend you to have a quick look at the documents in this community info. They are short - and explain a lot of things I'd have to explain to you here anyway.
November 7 2005, 23:35:08 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
> > Each language should have a fully independant keyboard layout> Exactly - that's how it's done since XFree86 4.3.0. But when you combine them - you get > ONE XKB CONFIGURATION. Which may contain up to 4 groups (and at this point there are no > LAYOUTS in XKB - only groups).
Well I (as a user) see Gnome. I want to have a configuration in Gnome with 5 languages. I do not care, whether for XKB it is one configuration or 5 configurations as long as it works. What exactly is the problem with having one xkb configuration per language and have them switching on keypress?
> > * languages are not independant
> Could you please explain what you mean? I don't really understand this point.
One of the features of Russian language keyboard layout was that you could press RAlt+letter to get a corresponding english letter (or symbol). To achieve the same effect with the new configuration I have to put Russian group before an English group and then also do some config magic in the Options tab. At the same time Latvian layout uses RAlt+letter to get accented letters. Despite my ability to read source code pretty well, I am still unable to find, how to make that combination work. Simple users just give up.
Same with 4 languages. I have seen users give up on even trying Linux desktop just because of that. In many companies in Latvia there are at least a few people that need more then 4 languages in their work. Russian, Latvian, English, Estonia, Lithuanian, German and French is quite a common list.
Just make 1 language = 1 xkb combination and it will just work.
November 7 2005, 23:45:12 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
> What exactly is the problem with having one xkb configuration per language and have them switching on keypress?Well, now you're asking the QUESTION. There are two sides of the story:
1. The performance of switching. In gkb world, the entire xkb configuration had to be changed. It is rather expensive thing. Now, it is only matter of changing one status variable - very cheap and easy. The performance of reconfiguring can be reduced by caching the compiled configuration - but it will never be as fast as just changing the group.
2. The switching shortcut. Now, it is all handled by xkb engine - the applet just indicates the fact 'the group was switched'. In gkb world, the applet had to hook on some particular keyboard combination and switch layouts itself. But the worst part of it, the combination could not be guaranteed to be 'stable' in different layouts - so hooking some combination in 'us' does not mean it will remain the same in 'in' or something. So proper hooking was real PITA (and gkb never did it right).
So, summarizing it all - the approach you propose is problematic. It is taken by KDE, BTW - and that's the reason why a lot of Russian DO NOT use KDE layout management. They install external utility kkbswitch (for indication) - and use manual configuration in xorg.conf.
Did I answer your question?
November 7 2005, 23:50:45 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
> Did I answer your question?Yes, kind of - if you want things to work, remake them from scratch yourself.
Now I only need to find out whether XKB extensions are good enough and I only need to rework thing above them or I also need to make a new X extension for keyboard switching (and also find a few years of free time) :P
November 7 2005, 23:55:07 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
Well, if you look at the document about problems with XKB - you'll see, this is not the only problem at hands. So if you want to create XKBPLUS - you'll get some support of course. But the story is that it is really HUGE effort. I don't have enough spare time for it - so I am just doing my best to use existing technology in most coherent way...November 7 2005, 23:49:18 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
> One of the features of Russian language keyboard layout was that you could press RAlt+letter to get a corresponding english letter (or symbol).It has NOTHING to do with GNOME. It is on x server level. And it is CORRECT - it was fixed in XFree 4.3.0. Russian layout SHOULD NOT have latin characters at all (even on 3rd and 4th shift levels - usually they are accessible using RAlt). If you want something with latin letters - please add EXPLICITLY any layout with latin letters, whichever you like. Latvian layout probably has some extra characters on 3rd and 4th shift levels.
Actually, I cannot remember any time when Russian XKB layout had 3rd and 4th shift levels with latin letters. There was a time when Russian layout had 2 groups - us and ru - but it is different... Or may be you were using xmodmap-based layouts in gkb?
November 7 2005, 23:52:16 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of languages
I have no idea. I just added Russian language to the list and it just worked, like it did in Windows. Not the case now.6 years ago
December 2 2005, 05:36:38 UTC 6 years ago
Number of Languages
If you need to have more than 4 languages, use KDE. I am using Suse 10.0 with KDE 3.4 and have 6 keyboards active with no problems.December 2 2005, 07:57:53 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages
KDE reconfigures the keyboard. GNOME changes the groups. KDE gives more than 4 groups. GNOME uses more effective more XKB-oriented approach. Choose yourself:)Anonymous
February 20 2006, 07:02:37 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages
I am using SuSE 10.0 with KDE 3.4.2. I have 3 keyboards: Russian, English, and Spanish. However, the Russian keyboard does not have the function of the Control or Alternate keys. For example, there is no Ctrl key combination that actuates bolding or italics in a word processor and there is no Alt key combination that activates the menus for, e.g., File or Edit menus.
Can you advise me regarding what my problem might be and how to solve it?
Thank you for your attention.
Alex
surlyc@alaska.net
February 20 2006, 08:37:14 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages
It is a well-known problem of many applications (most notorious - all the Mozilla-derived products). They bind shortcuts to the keysyms (for example, "W"), not keycodes (low-level codes which do not depend on the current layout). So if in Russian you don't have "W" - you cannot activate the shortcut. It is a bug in an application and should be fixed within it.Anonymous
February 20 2006, 17:07:03 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
Thank you for the prompt reply.I had originally thought that something like what you suggest might be the problem. But, it seemed odd to me that this problem existed even with KDE applications, which I thought would be well integrated among themselves -- including the keyboards.
Do you know what others are doing to get fully functional Russian keyboards in a multiple keyboard setup? I hate having to reboot to Windows when I need to type something long in Russian -- it becomes frustrating not to have the shortcuts available for long documents. Or, is there a web site or forum that you could recommend I check? I have been trying to RTFM, but I haven't been able to find the M for solving this issue.
Best regards,
Alex
February 20 2006, 19:56:02 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
This problem really exists in many apps. And quite possibly it is shared by all the programs with the same toolkit.I do not know any site with the discussion of such bugs. All I can recommend it looking at bugzillas and search for the relevant bugs.
For example:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.c
Anonymous
February 26 2006, 23:07:46 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
Putting together the suggestions of others,I discovered the solution to activating the
Ctrl+ and Alt+ key combinations for the Russian keyboard.
The solution was to edit the file xfree86
in /etc/X11/xkb/rules/. There are three lines
near the top of this file that are commented
and start with !nonlatin followed by abbreviations
for various nonlatin-alphabet languages.
The file contains instructions to uncomment the
!nonlatin lines when using nonlatin keyboards.
This was all I needed to do.
It may also be possible to accomplish this by
just making a selection in the KDE Control Center
to "Include Latin Layout" for those with a KDE setup,
although I was not able to do this with mine.
I hope this may help others.
Bests,
Alex
February 26 2006, 23:16:11 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
No, this is not a good solution. And I will never do it in xkeyboard-config. It creates a very bad practice of having multi-group layout which are difficult to combine. All layouts have to be single-grouped (and combinable). Having Russian layout with both Russian and American groups is absolute evil..Anonymous
February 27 2006, 19:57:34 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
Unfortunately, it seems that the solution I found is the only one available at this time for a KDE environment. I finally came across the KDE Help section that addresses this and I have copied the relevant part below, Does this problem not exist with Gnome?Chapter 4. Troubleshooting
Common Problems
...
If kxkb does not switch with keyboard shortcut when you switch it to some layout but switching with mouse is ok may mean that your layout does not contain the key assigned in shortcut.
In XFree86 prior to version 4.3.0 non-latin layouts mutually included latin group and this group was the default thus pressing Ctrl+Alt+k always yielded the right combination. From version 4.3.0 by default all layouts contain only one group thus non-latin layouts may not work here.
Possible solutions are:
add your layout to $nonlatin or $oldlayouts lists in /etc/X11/xkb/rules/xfree86 or the location of the xkb rules on your computer.
Change the shortcut to something language neutral, e.g. Ctrl+Menu
Turn on the option to include the “us” group in your layout (effectively the same as solution 1).
February 27 2006, 20:44:26 UTC 6 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
As I said, this is not the correct solution. This is "hack" or "workaround", completely breaking the elegant idea of the multiple layouts. The list "nonlatin" is deprecated and corresponding rules are not support.Yes, changing the shortcut to something "neutral" works ok. But it is diffucult to make all the shortcuts through the desktop "neutral".
The only proper way I see is fix it within apps and toolkits.
Anonymous
July 18 2006, 19:16:27 UTC 5 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
wtfDecember 7 2009, 22:36:44 UTC 2 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
Absolute evil is the point I can't get a proper layout number because it not supported on protocol level. Any solution is absolute good stuff.December 7 2009, 22:40:51 UTC 2 years ago
Re: Number of Languages / Russian keyboard shortcuts
The solution proposed above does not fix the issue with 4 groups in any way.